Spark Plugs?!?

[Psych]

Sup yall. Ive noticed that my car is breaking up a little WOT in 3rd and 4th. I just got my car tuned about 2 weeks ago. Im sure its not the tune. Currently Im running NGK's gapped at .23 I should ghave changed them out before I got tuned. Eitherway Im headed to the parts store to pick up another set. Im going to get NGK's of course. Any suggestions on how much I should gap them? FWIW it was tuned on 22.5lbs of boost. LMK

[TouringBubble]

On a stock turbo, pump gas VIII at that boost level, run a BPR7ES @ about .026. If you are running that plug at .023 and it's not over 7000 miles old, then you might be feeling knock (timing being pulled) and not a misfire.

[Psych]

On a stock turbo, pump gas VIII at that boost level, run a BPR7ES @ about .026. If you are running that plug at .023 and it's not over 7000 miles old, then you might be feeling knock (timing being pulled) and not a misfire.

Lol, dont tell me that because my cr was justed tuned. Before I got tuned I felt the same thing. I changed plugs and it was gone. Im running more boost now than i did before the tune. So im "thinking" that more boost now is causing me to break up/blow out spark/foul plugs. I guess I will have my answer when I examine the plugs. Ive been doing some reading on the other site and a lot of ppl are recommending the BR8ES over the BPR8ES.

I belive;
BPR8ES= 1 colder than stock
BR8ES= 1 1/2 step colder.

Anyone running BR8ES's?

[Chemwarrior]

I gapped mine at .023 and I was running 24 psi. I didn't have any problems with that gap. BTW I was running the 7s. I forgot the model number but it was the NGK Iridiums.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

I would recommend .022 to .024

At .023 I can't imagine that the gap would be causing you issues. It is possible the plugs are fouled out though... When did you change you plugs last?

[TouringBubble]

Actually, the BPR7ES is a colder plug. The BR8ES is 2 or 2.5 steps colder than stock (6). You don't need that with your setup.

And, I just put BR8ESs in to a customer car on E85 @ 27 psi. Gapped them to .024 and had no blowout.

As far as gap, anything from .020 to .028 should work for your setup. But, you want to use as wide of a gap as you can get away with for the best fuel burn. Under-gapping your plugs can lose power. Remember, stock gap on the VIII is .032.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

Actually, the BPR7ES is a colder plug. The BR8ES is 2 or 2.5 steps colder than stock (6). You don't need that with your setup.

And, I just put BR8ESs in to a customer car on E85 @ 27 psi. Gapped them to .024 and had no blowout.

As far as gap, anything from .020 to .028 should work for your setup. But, you want to use as wide of a gap as you can get away with for the best fuel burn. Under-gapping your plugs can lose power. Remember, stock gap on the VIII is .032.

I'm pretty sure 7 is stock heat range, 8 is 1 step colder, and 9 is 2 step colder on the NGK plugs for the Evo 8.

[TouringBubble]

I'm pretty sure the stock plugs on the VIII were 6s. The stock heat range on the IX is a 7 and they have colder plugs than the VIII. This is my understanding ...

BPR6ES/BPR6EIX (Iridium) - Stock
BPR7ES - 1 step colder
BR7ES - 1.5 Steps colder
BPR8ES - 2 steps colder
BR8ES - 2.5 Steps colder

(This might be 1/2 step off)

I've never owned a VIII though. I just know that the BPR7ES is the often recommended plug for the VIII when tuned, and I know the IX has colder plugs than the VIII and they are 7s.

EDIT :: Just found this link ... http://www.stikiller.com/product.php?productid=16422

[Psych]

I would recommend .022 to .024

At .023 I can't imagine that the gap would be causing you issues. It is possible the plugs are fouled out though... When did you change you plugs last?

Maybe 3k to 4k before the tune.

[Psych]

From my understanding on the Evo VIII the 7's are like stock heat range. I know the "P" stands for protruding plugs. Im going to go with 8's. I just cant decide if Im going to get BPR8ES or BR8ES. I honestly think they are just fouled and need to be changed. I was tuned on BPR8ES so Im leaning a little more towards them with .24 gap. However, I am curious about trying the BR8ES with .24 gap.

[Psych]

What happens if you have a plug that "too cold" for your set-up?

[TouringBubble]

If the plug is too cold, or the gap too small, you simply lose power as the fuel doesn't burn completely, or ignites too late.

[Psych]

Im going to try a fresh set of BPR8ES and see what happens. I will keep yall updated.

[TouringBubble]

Good luck.

[STGIIITsi]

I had the same problems with mine. I believe I went to 7's and gapped them at .32 well that was a mistake not knowing any better. Then I called my tuner back home in CO and was told to drop them to .26 well that partially helped but I think I had one a little off gap from the other 3 so not knowing that this was the problem I had bought another new set thinking the others were screwed well put them back at .26 still did the same thing well then I got sick of it one day and dropped them down to .22 or .23 and it was cured. I will honestly have to double check that I am using the 7's but I believe so anyway thats my story hope this does something or anything for that matter Sir.

[bomjoon]

Im going to try a fresh set of BPR8ES and see what happens. I will keep yall updated.

lol you just completely ignored tacobubba's explanation to "what if i run too cold of a plug?"

Lol, dont tell me that because my cr was just tuned.

well it looks like you need to straighten that out with your tooner.
did you do a mail in flash or take it to foraged?

[Psych]

lol you just completely ignored tacobubba's explanation to "what if i run too cold of a plug?"



well it looks like you need to straighten that out with your tooner.
did you do a mail in flash or take it to foraged?

I didnt ignore it at all. Ive read several times over that the 7 is the stock range. Im not trying to start a debate so his information was very much appreciated and respected. I already have BPR8ES in the car. I'm pretty sure that my issue is more of the plugs needing to be replaced than the incorrect heat range/gap. Besides I was at Forged Monday and he looked over all of my maps for me and they were fine. Apparently the BPR8ES performed well on my car because when I go it tuned a couple of weeks ago @ Forged he stated that it made pretty high numbers for the mods that I have. What I made...Im not telling;) I will give yall an update when I change them out.

[TouringBubble]

Colder plugs can aid in higher numbers as the help quell detonation. However, with only 3000 miles or so on the plugs it is hard to believe that they are fouled already unless your tune really sucked (super rich) before the tune recently.

I actually just handed back a car that was running BPR8ES that were not gapped (left at .032). He had no blow out at 23 psi. When we switched to E85 it would miss every other pull at 27 psi. So, I have dealt with this very recently.

I didn't mention knock because I wanted to tell you your tune wasn't good. I mentioned it because the temps have dropped a bit in the last few weeks and that can cause knock. Colder air makes more power, but is also temperamental in regard to knock resistance. In colder temps, a lot of really small things change, and it results in the need for more safety margin in your tune. You need to keep a richer mix and pull the timing back to account for it.

On my car specifically, I can run 11.8:1 at 25 psi in the summer with no knock. In the winter, that tune knocks like hell. I dropped the boost a psi, richened the mix down to 11.2:1 and pulled 2*-3* of timing across the entire rev range to get rid of the knock ... and made more power. I'm not sure what was looked at in your maps when you took it in, but it is absolutely impossible to just "look" at maps and tell someone that the car isn't knocking.

So, in my opinion, there is a chance it could be knock from a little leaner mix or a little too much timing for the colder temps. This observation is based on the the mileage on the plugs, the heat range and the gap. I hope that is not the case.

Either way, I would suggest you change the plugs while the temps are still cold just to verify.

[Psych]

Update. The plugs appeared to be a little white but overall nothing out of the normal.

The plugs are BPR8ES gapped at .23

I may try out some BPR7ES this time. I did make good numbers on the dyno with them but they still may be "too cold".

[VIIIrs]

they may be to cold with ur setup. i'm running 26lbs and on 8s, 7 is the stock heat range

[STGIIITsi]

I am now too running the BPR8ES gapped at .24 on 25-27 pounds running hard! Only problem so far is it seems like it doesnt like to idle as well it's not smooth when idleing but when being driven hard she is a rape date. Still in love with here though not the wife LOL!

[VIIIrs]

it shouldn't idle worse at all jarrod.

[Psych]

I am now too running the BPR8ES gapped at .24 on 25-27 pounds running hard! Only problem so far is it seems like it doesnt like to idle as well it's not smooth when idleing but when being driven hard she is a rape date. Still in love with here though not the wife LOL!

My car idled funny even after I got tuned. So I got a an egr block off plate, removed the egr stuff, and now it idles fine

[TouringBubble]

The BR7ES would be a temp between the BPR7 and BPR8 ... might want to consider that if you wanted to stay a little colder. Gapping down a BR8 or BPR8 below .026 on your setup will do you no good ... cold plus a smaller spark. you should look for a happy medium, and that might be the BR7ES @ .024 or so. Your call really.

Any of the options mentioned should work fine on your setup. But again, consider that you do want the most spark without blowout in most cases. Cylinder temps should be fine in the 7/8 heat range no matter the gap.

[Psych]

The BR7ES would be a temp between the BPR7 and BPR8 ... might want to consider that if you wanted to stay a little colder. Gapping down a BR8 or BPR8 below .026 on your setup will do you no good ... cold plus a smaller spark. you should look for a happy medium, and that might be the BR7ES @ .024 or so. Your call really.

Any of the options mentioned should work fine on your setup. But again, consider that you do want the most spark without blowout in most cases. Cylinder temps should be fine in the 7/8 heat range no matter the gap.

Do you think I would see any power gains by moving to BPR7ES or BR7ES?

[TouringBubble]

Possibly at your boost level, but it wouldn't be noticeable. Maybe a couple HP max. Temps will be comparable with correct gaps and fuel should burn completely on both. You just don't want to go too cold and a small gap ... that's where you lose power.

[Psych]

At would power level would you/yall suggest moving to the BPR8ES plugs?

[TouringBubble]

I know were not all on the same page as far as the stock heat range ... but the I'd run the BPR7ES up to about 320 whp and the BR7ES to 360 whp or so. Move to the BPR8ES with a larger turbo or E85. Of course, any of these plugs will perform similarly within a large range on either side of those numbers ... you could run a BPR8ES @ 310 hp if you wanted, or at 450 hp as long as you weren't blowing out the spark.

[Psych]

Cool, I may try out the BR7ES. I feel like a dumbass for not changing them before I got tuned. My car was running lean before my tune (found out on my baseline pull). Im thinkn that the white on the tip of the plug was caused by its pre-tuned state. All that to say, it may run better just because the plugs are fresh and not so much of the switch to the BR7ES's.

[TouringBubble]

Well, one thing to remember is that reading plugs is only really accurate right after a pull or if there is a failure. If you do 5 WOT pulls and are running rich (10:1), then drive it for 2 hours in closed loop, the plugs will read leaner (14.7:1 stoich) than you pulls as that's the last thing the engine was doing. So, if you DD your car and pull the plugs a week after driving to work for a week, they will not read what your WOT AFR was while tuning.

[Psych]

Gotcha. BTW, when are you going to get out of Chelsea and make it up to Atlanta for a meet or something. There is a pretty good event coming up at Commerce on the 21st. Lol, I like seeing those Alabama tags because they remind me of home.

[TouringBubble]

Gotcha. BTW, when are you going to get out of Chelsea and make it up to Atlanta for a meet or something. There is a pretty good event coming up at Commerce on the 21st. Lol, I like seeing those Alabama tags because they remind me of home.

I'm trying to find time man. I've got so much going on ... mainly building the Mazda. That's pretty much every weekend for my right now. If I'm not doing that, I'm racing.

[Evolvedgti]

Found this on sparkplugs.com regarding " I have slightly modified my motor, do I need a colder spark plug?
".............................

The term spark plug heat range refers to the speed with which the plug can transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the engine head. Whether the plug is to be installed in a boat, lawnmower or racecar, it has been found the optimum combustion chamber temperature for gasoline engines is between 500°C–850°C. When it is within that range it is cool enough to avoid pre-ignition and plug tip overheating (which can cause engine damage), while still hot enough to burn off combustion deposits which cause fouling.

The spark plug can help maintain the optimum combustion chamber temperature. The primary method used to do this is by altering the internal length of the core nose, in addition, the alloy compositions in the electrodes can be changed. This means you may not be able to visually tell a difference between heat ranges. When a spark plug is referred to as a “cold plug”, it is one that transfers heat rapidly from the firing tip into the engine head, which keeps the firing tip cooler. A “hot plug” has a much slower rate of heat transfer, which keeps the firing tip hotter.

An unaltered engine will run within the optimum operating range straight from the manufacturer, but if you make modifications such as a turbo, supercharger, increase compression, timing changes, use of alternate racing fuels, or sustained use of nitrous oxide, these can alter the plug tip temperature and may necessitate a colder plug. A rule of thumb is, one heat range colder per modification or one heat range colder for every 75–100hp you increase. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one full heat range to the next is the ability to remove 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber.

The heat range numbers used by spark plug manufacturers are not universal, by that we mean, a 10 heat range in Champion is not the same as a 10 heat range in NGK nor the same in Autolite. Some manufacturers numbering systems are opposite the other, for domestic manufacturers (Champion, Autolite, Splitfire), the higher the number, the hotter the plug. For Japanese manufacturers (NGK, Denso), the higher the number, the colder the plug.

Do not make spark plug changes at the same time as another engine modification such as injection, carburation or timing changes as in the event of poor results, it can lead to misleading and inaccurate conclusions (an exception would be when the alternate plugs came as part of a single precalibrated upgrade kit). When making spark plug heat range changes, it is better to err on the side of too cold a plug. The worst thing that can happen from too cold a plug is a fouled spark plug, too hot a spark plug can cause severe engine damage

[Psych]

That was good reading. Thanks for the info. I cant decribe how hard it is to go to an Autoparts store and ask for NGK BR7ES or NGK BPR8ES plugs...two failed trips. One at Autozone another at Summit. I thought by having an exact product/model number makes it easier on the sales person???

[VIIIrs]

the last part that was in bold was all i could read. i dont have that good of an attention span......ADD is a MO FO.....i'll read it later LOL

[mike.p]

dude look how much a ngk 1 step colder plugs is for the IX. R7437-8 - 1 Step Colder Racing plug ($41.52 each sparkplugs.com) this cant be the only option for us ix guys... although i havnt really looked into it

[Evolvedgti]

dude look how much a ngk 1 step colder plugs is for the IX. R7437-8 - 1 Step Colder Racing plug ($41.52 each sparkplugs.com) this cant be the only option for us ix guys... although i havnt really looked into it

Go with what I run Denso IKH24 is one step colder and 47$(for a set) + shipping from Sparkplugs.com.


The IKH22 is stock range if that is what you want. the only problem with Denso, is NOONE locally has them.

[em1toevo]

I run NGK BR8EG plugs as recommended by Andrew from Dyno4mance.

[Evolvedgti]

I run NGK BR8EG plugs as recommended by Andrew from Dyno4mance.

Those are the one step colder for VIII's right Brett?

[Evolvedgti]

That was good reading. Thanks for the info. I cant decribe how hard it is to go to an Autoparts store and ask for NGK BR7ES or NGK BPR8ES plugs...two failed trips. One at Autozone another at Summit. I thought by having an exact product/model number makes it easier on the sales person???

I hate that shit. if it aint in their comp, they dont know what to do. I can't count how many times I have heard" are you sure this is what you want?"

[mike.p]

Go with what I run Denso IKH24 is one step colder and 47$(for a set) + shipping from Sparkplugs.com.


The IKH22 is stock range if that is what you want. the only problem with Denso, is NOONE locally has them.
thanks man.. i havnt looked into a set but i should scene im making alot more power than stock and no telling how old they are..lol

[Evolvedgti]

thanks man.. i havnt looked into a set but i should scene im making alot more power than stock and no telling how old they are..lol

NP. the local shops of course sell the NGK race ones.........more money.

[em1toevo]

Those are the one step colder for VIII's right Brett?

That's right Jon. They perform really well and come gapped within the recommended range out of the box. Just look them up on eBay. I got a set for around $21.

[Evolvedgti]

That's right Jon. They perform really well and come gapped within the recommended range out of the box. Just look them up on eBay. I got a set for around $21.

I have a IX. I was just making convo plus it may help some other VIII owners ;)

[StrScrm]

I have a IX. I was just making convo plus it may help some other VIII owners ;)

yup like me :D!

[Evolvedgti]

yup like me :D!

Nobody cares !



































































:p:D