Look what I got today!

[jamsky]

My AP rear sway bar and sway bar links finally arrived!


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg277/jamsky614/DSC02764.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg277/jamsky614/DSC02765.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg277/jamsky614/DSC02766.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg277/jamsky614/DSC02763.jpg

Still waiting on the Cusco V1 and V2 under brace.

[bomjoon]

no front sway?

[shunderwunder]

Rear sway is more important on an Ebo than a front sway.

[bomjoon]

says who?

the front is more important than rear sway on any car.

you can get by w/o the rear but w/o the front the car will be all wobbly.

[jamsky]

You can ask Ryan which is more important, rear or front.

[Hikaru]

I think Andy is referring to the fact that the stock suspension is set up to understeer a bit. By adding a stiffer rear bar you can help it rotate a little better. But you prolly knew that already....

[TripperFx3]

Its also a pain in the ass to do the front sway. You have to drop the subframe. Robispec makes a plate for the front to make the front bar adjustable.

[jamsky]

Well, I'm gonna change my stock suspension to a set of coilover. Ryan told me just to get a rear sway bar.

Any thoughts touring bubble?


I think Andy is referring to the fact that the stock suspension is set up to understeer a bit. By adding a stiffer rear bar you can help it rotate a little better. But you prolly knew that already....

[freshandclean]

Looks good! They do a nice job.

[atlsupra]

Yup, for Evo (AWD cars), adding a stiffer rear sway bar will help to reduce the understeering.

[shunderwunder]

says who?

the front is more important than rear sway on any car.

you can get by w/o the rear but w/o the front the car will be all wobbly.

If you put a larger bar up front & leave the rear stock then you will have massive amounts of understeer. Just installing a rear bar will allow you to dial out the understeer & even add a bit of oversteer if you desire. Installing front & rear at the same time & adjusting both correctly will help keep the car flat in the turns and reduce the oversteer also. Adding just a rear bar will give you most of the benefit of adding both but is much cheaper & really all you need on a street driven car in my opinion. So the way I see it...

Front only = Heavy understeer
Rear only = Reduced/No Understeer or a bit of Oversteer
Both = Reduced/No Understeer or a bit of Oversteer + Reduced Body Roll

I think Andy is referring to the fact that the stock suspension is set up to understeer a bit. By adding a stiffer rear bar you can help it rotate a little better. But you prolly knew that already....

Yup, for Evo (AWD cars), adding a stiffer rear sway bar will help to reduce the understeering.

Yup, that's what I'm talkin bout.

[Chemwarrior]

Upgrading your rear swaybar first is definitely more important than a front swaybar. I noticed a massive difference in handling after installing my rear swaybar. It was really evident autocrossing and having to toss your car hard into corners. Before I had a lot of understeer after installing the rear swaybar I was able to point and shoot and even induce some oversteer.

[TouringBubble]

Oh noes ... someone asked my opinion ...

Yes, adding only a rear sway bar will decrease understeer. But, it is actually at the expense of overall grip. You are actually decreasing the rear grip which causes the rear to lose traction easier, hence oversteer. (See post #35)

You generally want to upgrade both sways at the same time to reduce overall roll of the vehicle and work with the natural torsion of the chassis. If the front dips/rolls hard, that will be transferred to the rear and unweight the inside rear wheel. The stiffer the chassis and the stiffer the rear suspension (sways and springs), the worse this effect.

The sway makes the inside and outside suspension work together, so when the outside spring compresses, the inside decompresses. With a softer sway, the sides are more independent to compress/decompress, so the inside wheel won't lift as much and you keep more tire on the ground.

Spring rates, torsion ratings, weight and use of the car all play in to how much sway bar you need. Street cars run softer springs, so more sway bar is added to decrease body roll. Race cars have super stiff springs and less sway, which increases grip levels as roll is drastically reduced with the springs alone.

For a dual purpose street car, I generally recommend upgrading both the front and rear bars (reducing roll on both ends) and going slightly stiffer with the springs (better transitional response, less roll, less compression). This reduces body roll, increases grip levels, promotes a neutral balance and keeps an acceptable 2-wheel bump rate (sways only affect 1-wheel bump) that keeps the car from being "jarring" on the street.

But, with all that said, upgrading only the rear bar can make a car faster since oversteer is faster than understeer. But, grip is still reduced.

[jamsky]

Your opinion make sense. But how come most of the car enthusiast only upgrade to rear sway bar?

Are you an auto mechanic touring bubble? I mean, I don't mean to discredit your opinion in fact it makes a lot of sense but I'm just wondering why most of the racers and car lovers out there only put a rear sway bar and not the front? Is it for just each and everyone's preference?

Like Ryan of Forged, he advised me to just get a rear sway bar that's why I only bought one.:)




Oh noes ... someone asked my opinion ...

Yes, adding only a rear sway bar will decrease understeer. But, it is actually at the expense of overall grip. You are actually decreasing the rear grip which causes the rear to lose traction easier, hence oversteer. You generally want to upgrade both sways at the same time to reduce overall roll of the vehicle and work with the natural torsion of the chassis. If the front dips/rolls hard, that will be transferred to the rear and unweight the inside rear wheel. The stiffer the chassis and the stiffer the rear suspension (sways and springs), the worse this effect.

The sway makes the inside and outside suspension work together, so when the outside spring compresses, the inside decompresses. With a softer sway, the sides are more independent to compress/decompress, so the inside wheel won't lift as much and you keep more tire on the ground.

Spring rates, torsion ratings, weight and use of the car all play in to how much sway bar you need. Street cars run softer springs, so more sway bar is added to decrease body roll. Race cars have super stiff springs and less sway, which increases grip levels as roll is drastically reduced with the springs alone.

For a dual purpose street car, I generally recommend upgrading both the front and rear bars (reducing roll on both ends) and going slightly stiffer with the springs (better transitional response, less roll, less compression). This reduces body roll, increases grip levels, promotes a neutral balance and keeps an acceptable 2-wheel bump rate (sways only affect 1-wheel bump) that keeps the car from being "jarring" on the street.

But, with all that said, upgrading only the rear bar can make a car faster since oversteer is faster than understeer. But, grip is still reduced.

[Charlie]

They choose not to run the front sway due to the difficulty of installation in most cases.

In the Evo, like stated, we require more turn in, the easiest way to achieve is to place a larger rear bar.

Other do not have the knowledge and just follow the crowd.

[Kuruma]

I think Andy is referring to the fact that the stock suspension is set up to understeer a bit. By adding a stiffer rear bar you can help it rotate a little better. But you prolly knew that already....

I found the best coment regarding this.

Why sacrifice rear grip to compensate for understeer. Why not make the front stick and turn? More grip all around and a neutral handling car.

[jamsky]

Calling for Ryan, I want your opinion please sir since you're the one who adviced me to get just the rear sway only.

[VIIIrs]

wow this thread exploded quick i would also like to know because my next upgrade will be suspension

[shunderwunder]

It all boils down to cost/benefit

-Front only on an Evo is a bad idea. It will hurt the overall performance of the car without a rear bar.
-Rear bar will will help dial out understeer & make the car feel more neutral. It's also alot cheaper than doing both.
-Both bars together will net you the best overall performance. You will get the neutral feeling while retaining traction due to the car staying more flat. While this is the best choice overall, most people just choose a rear bar due to the dificulty/cost of installing a front bar (dropping subframe).

Another key note is to make sure they are adjusted correctly. If your're not already familiar with the way your car will react then I'd reccomend starting in the middle to loose side(end links connected to the holes at the end of the bar). Then slowly adjust tighter as you test the car. This is kinda hard to do on the street cause to really tell how it affects the car you will need to push it in a corner to the point where you start to loose traction. Another thing to keep in mind when making adjustmenst is that you dont have to keep the end links in the same hole on each side. The sway bar works by controllinf the flex accross the entire bar so you can make minor adjustments by moving one end link up or down one hole without messing with the other side.

[bomjoon]

Your opinion make sense. But how come most of the car enthusiast only upgrade to rear sway bar?

Are you an auto mechanic touring bubble?

Like Ryan of Forged, he advised me to just get a rear sway bar that's why I only bought one.:)



lol most dont upgrade both because they are some broke ninjas.

TB is a mechanic in theory.

ryan told you that to sell a rear bar.

[bomjoon]

If you put a larger bar up front & leave the rear stock then you will have massive amounts of understeer. Just installing a rear bar will allow you to dial out the understeer & even add a bit of oversteer if you desire. Installing front & rear at the same time & adjusting both correctly will help keep the car flat in the turns and reduce the oversteer also. Adding just a rear bar will give you most of the benefit of adding both but is much cheaper & really all you need on a street driven car in my opinion. So the way I see it...

Front only = Heavy understeer
Rear only = Reduced/No Understeer or a bit of Oversteer
Both = Reduced/No Understeer or a bit of Oversteer + Reduced Body Roll





Yup, that's what I'm talkin bout.


no.
front sway adds front grip. compared to stock the limit where the car starts to push will be higher.
if you upgrade the front sway and leave the rear stock it will be fine you will have more grip. and higher point where it understeers.

when upgrading sway bars its wise to upgrade them both at the same time.

rear sway makes the rear stiffer and makes it break loose more easier. that means less grip.

[bomjoon]

even cheaper way to gain oversteer is to over pump up the rear tires. like 60000psi

less grip in rear = oversteer.

[bomjoon]

evo oversteers as is stock you dont need to upgrade the rear only to gain oversteer.

there are soo many ways to gain oversteer. just upgrading the rear is just a way to get cheap oversteer and it actually hurts your laptime.

[shunderwunder]

no.
front sway adds front grip. compared to stock the limit where the car starts to push will be higher.
if you upgrade the front sway and leave the rear stock it will be fine you will have more grip. and higher point where it understeers.

when upgrading sway bars its wise to upgrade them both at the same time.

rear sway makes the rear stiffer and makes it break loose more easier. that means less grip.

Well to be honest I've never driven in a car where the stock setup induces some understeer & then someone put only a front bar on it. This means I can't speak from experience on that setup. Itjust doesn't seem that that would work as you explained it. I would think that having a front only bar would cause the inside front tire to lift a bit causing an even greater loss of traction up front. The rear bar still being loose would allow the rear tires to maintain grip as the car sees some body roll which is why I think a larger front bar only is not so good an idea. Again I have no direct input & have never seen or heard of a FWD or AWD with only a front bar upgrade. However I've driven 2 cars before and after a rear bar was added & it definately helped my lap times making the car more neutral. There's no need to induce oversteer but reducing the understeer at the cost of a little grip has seemed to do wonders for me. I'd rather loose grip and the whole car slide out a bit vs having just the front end loose grip & push causing a need to get off the gas and or brake.

[jamsky]

I understand your point Andy.



Well to be honest I've never driven in a car where the stock setup induces some understeer & then someone put only a front bar on it. This means I can't speak from experience on that setup. Itjust doesn't seem that that would work as you explained it. I would think that having a front only bar would cause the inside front tire to lift a bit causing an even greater loss of traction up front. The rear bar still being loose would allow the rear tires to maintain grip as the car sees some body roll which is why I think a larger front bar only is not so good an idea. Again I have no direct input & have never seen or heard of a FWD or AWD with only a front bar upgrade. However I've driven 2 cars before and after a rear bar was added & it definately helped my lap times making the car more neutral. There's no need to induce oversteer but reducing the understeer at the cost of a little grip has seemed to do wonders for me. I'd rather loose grip and the whole car slide out a bit vs having just the front end loose grip & push causing a need to get off the gas and or brake.

[bomjoon]

you are forgetting more front grip with same set up = less rear grip = oversteer.
( most cases)

and when did i say you should just upgrade the front sway? i said if you do a sway bar upgrade do them both to get the most performance gain.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

You can ask Ryan which is more important, rear or front.

Rear is more important

Calling for Ryan, I want your opinion please sir since you're the one who adviced me to get just the rear sway only.

I do believe doing both sways is the best possible setup. However, if you are on a budget at all doing just the rear will still help you and leave you to do the front at a later date. The install cost alone makes most Evo owners choose to do just the rear. The install on the front is a huge pain in the ass which is why most do not do it.

Joey, where your reasoning has some good points, it is false to say doing just a rear is a bad idea or ineffective. Upgrading just the rear sway and not the front is a very common practice because it works just fine. There are several suspension specialists that recommend starting with a set of springs, REAR SWAY, and bushings. Here are several examples of this:

RobiSpec - Basic and Advanced setups
http://www.robispec.com/services/?id=basic-suspension-package-
http://www.robispec.com/services/?id=advanced-suspension-services-

Works - Stage 1,2, & 3 Setups
http://www.worksevo.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=100_101_133&products_id=70
http://www.worksevo.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=100_101_133&products_id=85
http://www.worksevo.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=100_101_133&products_id=87

John Mueller Doesn't even sell a front sway:
http://www.muellerized.com/products_evo89.html

GTWorx Stage 2 & 3
http://forums.evolutionm.net/vendor-announcements/322521-introducing-gtworx-suspension-stages.html

These are only a couple examples. Surely myself and a few others who specialize in suspension are not just making this up right? Doing just a rear does work, it is not required to do both of them at the same time. The suspension will perform better by doing a rear sway without a front.

and when did i say you should just upgrade the front sway? i said if you do a sway bar upgrade do them both to get the most performance gain.

Pretty sure he was responding to this comment:

This comment is not accurate either...

says who?

the front is more important than rear sway on any car.

you can get by w/o the rear but w/o the front the car will be all wobbly.



ryan told you that to sell a rear bar.

It's comments like this that are the reason I am not on this board as much as I used to be. That comment is downright insulting.

Just FYI I gave him advice, but did not sell him the rear bar nor did I try to... Ass...

[shunderwunder]

Yup, that's the comment I was refering to. And that last comment doesn't hold water either since Ryan would have benefited more by selling him both bars instead of one. Sounds to me like he made a recomendation based on what he thought would work best for Jim as opposed to selling him more.

[VIIIrs]

I agree shunder but honestly who cares if ryan just told him that to sell him sumthing atleast he was giving him good advice you know what i'm sayin i though that was a fucked up comment about ryan...I know that everytime that i asked him his opinion or advice he was more than willing to help out.

[bomjoon]

alright ryan you just took my comment i made with no pun intended into a comment filled with hate.

as most of you know i make comments like that to ryan all the time... well now i know that most of you dont know that i make comments like that.


as far as the sway bar talk goes... i used to run upgraded rear bar alone for the longest time. then i got my hands on the front sway and then i thought to myself i should have gotten this as soon as i bought the car.

geting rear bar made little to no difference on how the car handled to me.

after getting front put on then i realized how much better the car responded and turned. when i got my rear bar put on and put into full stiff (with endlinks) i was dissapointed. it almost felt like stock. it did however was easier to flick it and turn it into awd slides.

Robi himself told me i would never need the front sway bar unless i was pushing 600+hp and with slicks. and i believed him for a while and then i got my front swaybar. the car acted so much diffrerent. i still dont understand why he didnt want me to get it.
(i think it was so that when he was setting my suspension he just didnt want to install it)

and ryan those sellers you posted may not sell it since people dont buy it. you ever thought of that? why sell something people dont buy and waste space and time advertising it.

what it all boils down to is how the driver drives the car and how he likes the feel of the stuff when he is driving.

i help out with kinetics who we race in Grand am series.
i help drivers like Andy Lally and Nic Jonsson with the same car the 2 drivers desire 2 very different characteristics out of the car.
andy likes it kinda soft and nic likes it stiff. andy likes the rear bar and medium setting and nic likes it at full stiff.

same car different set up.
what im trying to say is you cant ask for set ups to people and hope for the best you have to try it for yourself.

i fuckin hate turning internet chit chat into a fuck essay. so i will stop here.

and ryan did really tried to sell you the rear bar. thats all.

and andy likes lil boys

[bomjoon]

oh i forgot to add i got more oversteer out of the car after putting the front sway on.

the added front grip helped in turning the car instead of going into a pushmower mode.

now i can sling the rear out w/o the fear of setting up the front for the rear to step out.
(i still have my rear bar set up the same as it was before i got the front sway. which is full stiff)

[shunderwunder]

oh i forgot to add i got more oversteer out of the car after putting the front sway on.

the added front grip helped in turning the car instead of going into a pushmower mode.

now i can sling the rear out w/o the fear of setting up the front for the rear to step out.
(i still have my rear bar set up the same as it was before i got the front sway. which is full stiff)

But you already had a rear bar too so again were back to both bars. ;) I'd be curious to see how a front only bar would handle in the real world. Prolly never will since I doubt anyone wants to try it. I never said a front bar is a bad idea just that a rear only is a good start for most people & does make a big diffrence. Both is the best choice but is a good bit more pricey. I still don't think choosing a front bar over a rear bar is a good idea.

[jamsky]

He's selling me a set of coilover not a rear sway bar.

We're still negotiating about the price tho.






and ryan did really tried to sell you the rear bar. thats all.

[TouringBubble]

oh i forgot to add i got more oversteer out of the car after putting the front sway on.

the added front grip helped in turning the car instead of going into a pushmower mode.

now i can sling the rear out w/o the fear of setting up the front for the rear to step out.
(i still have my rear bar set up the same as it was before i got the front sway. which is full stiff)

Joey and Andy are both right actually. Upgrading only the front bar will add more UNDERSTEER, but it should actually increase overall grip, unlike the rear bar alone, by working to decrease the heavy shift to the front outside corner through the first half of the corner. So, when you pass the traction limit (which will be higher overall), you will be more prone to understeer.

Since the car is very nose heavy on entry, the front bar is actually more important at that point and can do much more to maintain grip levels since there is not much chance for the front inside to lift at that point. The heavier bar will decrease transfer to the outside, which actually helps keep the inside rear on the ground (like I mentioned about chassis torsion earlier). This increases understeer by INCREASING rear grip, not lowering front grip.

I won't simply say that one bar is more important than the other, as honestly the springs and dampers are the real important stuff, followed closely by geometry. Sways are an afterthought meant to pick up slack when you aren't running a super stiff spring and to help dial in the balance of the car on entry and exit. Sways are very subjective and deal more with preference than any "right" way to do things.

And Jams, I'm kind of a mechanic. I do work on cars. But any knowledge of suspension and chassis setup goes far beyond that. I am not one of the "follow the pack" people and I generally don't trust the sugestions of others if they can't back their claims up with facts. So, I end up going way overboard with research and theory before making decisions about what parts to purchase and what setups to run. If I make a decision, I always spend the time to make sure it's the right one, so I end up learning a lot in the process.

When setting up my suspension, I worked pretty closely with Andrew at GTWorx bouncing ideas back and forth about spring rates, sways, geometry, camber, etc. Speaking with him, along with lots of my own research, is how I get my suspension knowledge.

Suspension is really the trickiest things about vehicle setup. It's not like an engine where there is a formula to make it work. It's cut and dry how to make more power or get a flatter tq curve. Suspension works in many different ways, in 3 dimensions and with man, MANY different components all at once. Understanding them all is a very difficult task. Few people actually grasp the entire concept, and they likely all work as race engineers for some big name race team. I am not one of those people, so take my advise with a grain of salt, just as I do everyone else's.

[TouringBubble]

Actually, thinking about this some more last night, there is something that hasn't been covered which may get everyone on the same page.

Through a corner, the weight transfers in a semicircle around one side of the vehicle.

First, to the nose, compressing both front springs and decompressing the rear. Sways do nothing at this point.

On turn in, the weight shifts to the front outside, decompressing the inside front and rear a little more and compressing the outside a little more. The sways come in to effect at this point and this is where the front bar really shines. The transfer to the front outiside is limited by the bar and keeps the car flatter on all 4 corners (as most of the weight is still in the front), keeping more traction on all 4 wheels by limiting weight transfer and torsion. With the left/right transfer limited between the front wheels, the front inside can hold more grip, and while the insider rear essentially has more grip than without the upgraded front bar, there is no weight there to give any notable traction change in the rear, so you get understeer if you push too hard.

Around the apex, you manage the throttle and the weight is now close to balanced between the front and rear, with the weight heavily shifted to the outside. Both bars work in unison here, flattening the car and keeping the inside tires on the pavement. Overall grip levels will determine what will slip first at this point (front or rear), but both are increased with upgraded bars in both locations.

As you exit, you roll on the throttle and the weight shifts backward, but not nearly as harshly as it does under braking. Weight is still havily on the outside with a slight bias to the rear. The rear bar does more duty here, again decreasing transfer and limiting torsion. With both bars in place, this part of the corner should still be very neutral, but you could promote oversteer with a little more throttle (overloading the outside rear with the front inside unweighted) depending on the tires, torque and overall weight and balance of the vehicle.

As you accelerate out of the corner and unwind the wheel, the weight shits evenly to the rear wheels and the sways are again useless.

So, basically, the front bar does duty the first half of the corner and the rear does it the second half. But, since weight transfer is much more drastic under braking and initial turn in, the front bar has a greater effect on the overall performance of the car. The rear bar does play it's part, but more so later in the corner and with much less weight transfer to deal with (which is why rear bars are smaller).

While the rear bar alone stiffens the rear suspension and decreases weight transfer, "increased rear grip" and "oversteer" are mutually exclusive. The rear bar actually helps induce oversteer by reducing transfer and torsion, which increases front grip during the first part of the corner, just not to the same degree as the front bar would.

I know it might seem a little weird, but consider it. The front is really where you need grip on a AWD car ... that is the advantage. It's much easier to overload the front tires entering a corner than the rear on exit. But balancing the load better between the tires balances the duty and increases overall grip. The front bar directly affects the front wheels and is larger and stronger than the rear, therefore has greater effect.

So, I will recend my statement that the rear bar decreases overall grip. That is false according to my understanding. Both bars limit weight transfer and torsion, and therefore increase grip by spreading out the duty between the tires.

But, if I were to go with just one bar to upgrade, it would be the front.

[jamsky]

Thanks for your very informative response. :)


Actually, thinking about this some more last night, there is something that hasn't been covered which may get everyone on the same page.

Through a corner, the weight transfers in a semicircle around one side of the vehicle.

First, to the nose, compressing both front springs and decompressing the rear. Sways do nothing at this point.

On turn in, the weight shifts to the front outside, decompressing the inside front and rear a little more and compressing the outside a little more. The sways come in to effect at this point and this is where the front bar really shines. The transfer to the front outiside is limited by the bar and keeps the car flatter on all 4 corners (as most of the weight is still in the front), keeping more traction on all 4 wheels by limiting weight transfer and torsion. With the left/right transfer limited between the front wheels, the front inside can hold more grip, and while the insider rear essentially has more grip than without the upgraded front bar, there is no weight there to give any notable traction change in the rear, so you get understeer if you push too hard.

Around the apex, you manage the throttle and the weight is now close to balanced between the front and rear, with the weight heavily shifted to the outside. Both bars work in unison here, flattening the car and keeping the inside tires on the pavement. Overall grip levels will determine what will slip first at this point (front or rear), but both are increased with upgraded bars in both locations.

As you exit, you roll on the throttle and the weight shifts backward, but not nearly as harshly as it does under braking. Weight is still havily on the outside with a slight bias to the rear. The rear bar does more duty here, again decreasing transfer and limiting torsion. With both bars in place, this part of the corner should still be very neutral, but you could promote oversteer with a little more throttle (overloading the outside rear with the front inside unweighted) depending on the tires, torque and overall weight and balance of the vehicle.

As you accelerate out of the corner and unwind the wheel, the weight shits evenly to the rear wheels and the sways are again useless.

So, basically, the front bar does duty the first half of the corner and the rear does it the second half. But, since weight transfer is much more drastic under braking and initial turn in, the front bar has a greater effect on the overall performance of the car. The rear bar does play it's part, but more so later in the corner and with much less weight transfer to deal with (which is why rear bars are smaller).

While the rear bar alone stiffens the rear suspension and decreases weight transfer, "increased rear grip" and "oversteer" are mutually exclusive. The rear bar actually helps induce oversteer by reducing transfer and torsion, which increases front grip during the first part of the corner, just not to the same degree as the front bar would.

I know it might seem a little weird, but consider it. The front is really where you need grip on a AWD car ... that is the advantage. It's much easier to overload the front tires entering a corner than the rear on exit. But balancing the load better between the tires balances the duty and increases overall grip. The front bar directly affects the front wheels and is larger and stronger than the rear, therefore has greater effect.

So, I will recend my statement that the rear bar decreases overall grip. That is false according to my understanding. Both bars limit weight transfer and torsion, and therefore increase grip by spreading out the duty between the tires.

But, if I were to go with just one bar to upgrade, it would be the front.

[TouringBubble]

You're welcome.