Which is the BETTER way to spend $1500

[Psych]

Just like the title says. Which is the better way to spend $1500 on my evo? Its a 2003 with TBE and ETS 3.5" FMIC with full short route piping and a IX bov. Goals: Drive it everday and make around 450whp on pump (dynojet).

Option A:
-GSC S2's
-Supertech Springs & Retainers
-ARP Headstuds

Option B:
-MAP SST Turbo
-1200cc injectors

Option C:
-IX turbo
-MAP 3" O2 Eliminator Downpipe
-USED HKS 272's
-ARP Headstuds

link

http://www.maperformance.com/map-stainless-steel-o2-eliminator-downpipe-for-evolution-8-9-map-o2e-ss-evo.html

[shunderwunder]

I just got through giving you my input in the PM I just sent but since there is now a thread I guess I chime in here too. ;)

Option C sux IMO. IX turbo is good but you'll want more soon after getting one. The HKS 272's aren't great cams & won't give you much gains. I made the mistake of buying cheaper cams & ended up replacing them later on with good ones. Sometimes cheaper can cost more in the long run.

From what I've heard installing headstuds one by one is hit or miss. A lot of times cars develop head gaskel leaks by doing it that way. Since the only right way to do it is to pull the head & replace the gasket then I'd reccomend waiting till you actually need to. There are plenty of people running higher boost 25-30 PSI on stock headstuds without any issues and of course just as many runing ARP studs without pulling the head with no problems. I wouldn't sweat it unless you plan to run over 30PSI or are already pulling the head.

As for Option A, Those are much nicer cams than the HKS 272s and will allow you to up your rev limit with the springs. I've been running the FP4R cams for a little over a year & I love them. I swapped out the BC 272s I had & it was a night and day diffrence. The FP4Rs can be run without upgrading the valvetrain which makes them a less costly alternative. They can be reved to 8k RPM with stock valvetrain as per the item description on the FP website. If you plan to do a lot of high RPM driving then it still would be worth wile upgrading the springs with any cams that you coose.

As for Option B, I think the SST will be a very good turbo for the money but there isn't much info out yet so there is always the possibility that you could be dissapointed. It seems that it has potential but there isn't much info yet so it's too early to say. I think the BBK may be a better pump gas street turbo but it's too soon to tell.

I'd say get the cams now & wait till there is more info on the turbo before you make that decision.

[Psych]

Im leaning a little more towards option A. The only problem is that Im still on the 9.8 turbo. So it will sound agressive but I may not even break 350whp. Lol, my thinking with option B is that any turbo is better than the 9.8.

[ChanseEvo8]

interesting thread, good luck on your pick bro. I would be in process of cams/ headwork if my TC didn't take a dump on me lol. You ever thought about Kelford cams? That's what i'm leaning towards to...

[Psych]

interesting thread, good luck on your pick bro. I would be in process of cams/ headwork if my TC didn't take a dump on me lol. You ever thought about Kelford cams? That's what i'm leaning towards to...

I thought about them but i think the GSC's will do the job too. Option D: is to buy your wheels from you!!!!!!!!!!!

[blkonblk2red]

I thought about them but i think the GSC's will do the job too. Option D: is to buy your wheels from you!!!!!!!!!!!

o didn't see you have stock injectors...you'd need injectors

I'd go with option A those cams imo are alot better then the hks 272's.... powerband i think is going to be a lot better without mivec as well... instead of switching out the turbo you could look into getting a 10.4 hotside... or porting it... it'd be a cheaper route... and if e85 is right next to you i think you could break 400whp with those cams and 8 turbo... i think i ended up running around 420 never got to dyno it but i had revolver cams, e85, 8 turbo 10.4 hotside, ported manifold, intercooler, exhaust

[Psych]

o didn't see you have stock injectors...you'd need injectors

I'd go with option A those cams imo are alot better then the hks 272's.... powerband i think is going to be a lot better without mivec as well... instead of switching out the turbo you could look into getting a 10.4 hotside... or porting it... it'd be a cheaper route... and if e85 is right next to you i think you could break 400whp with those cams and 8 turbo... i think i ended up running around 420 never got to dyno it but i had revolver cams, e85, 8 turbo 10.4 hotside, ported manifold, intercooler, exhaust

Yeah there is a station less than one mile away from me with E85. I guess I could always get another 9.8 turbo for cheap and have it ported to 10.5 or more. I talked to Dan from Batlground a long long time ago and he told me thats what they did on Tracy's evo from back in the day. The just ported the 9.8 housing. I already have an extra ex manifold just laying around. Good food for thought. Any suggestions for port work in town?

[Evolvedgti]

I voted A. Reason: Get the supporting MODS outta the way first. That way when you do get the turbo, it really comes alive. This will also give you more time for others to test the SST out.

[EVILutionVIII]

Voted C. You'll see the most gains with this option.

HKS cams aren't bad by any means, you'll definitely see gains over stock.

[em1toevo]

I think Jon is right. You should get the supporting mods first.

[TripperFx3]

I voted for C. You'll see the most gains from this and your still getting cams. The S2's are too aggressive for the 9.8 turbo and even a good cam like the HKS 272's or even better yet you can get the GSC S1's which perform better than the 272's and are normally cheaper, will help with spool up when you go larger turbo. It seems like you want to go with a stock frame turbo anyways down the road, so more aggressive cams like the GSC S2's will help with more top end, but not enough of a difference IMO.

[Kuruma]

I am dissapointed in my hks 272's.

[mike@sargentpower]

For $1500 I would start working on supporting mods while your save your pennies for a good turbo and a good set of cams. Go ahead and up your injectors to your eventual power goal now, upgrade the fuel pump to your eventual hp goal, and maybe get some engine management if you don't have it already. I have had several customers that try to cheap out and are always back wanting more and have wasted money on the first round of mods.

The first thing to do is figure out honestly what hp level you will be happy with. Buy the parts once and be done with it. If your eventual goal is 500whp, start by buying the mods to get you there. Maybe take a test ride in some other members cars.

BTW I would go with Bosch injectors from Tony at N1 racing. Those things are awesome. They have 1000cc injectors you can push to 1600 and of course their new 2000 cc injectors.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

I would honestly recommend a setup very similar to mine. Your goals are identical to what I did on my IX MR. (400whp dynamics and daily driver) As mentioned previously do it in a progression. Sounds like your next step is cams, valve springs retainers, and a fuel pump. That will set you up nicely for when you do turbo/injectors (I would recommend HTA FP Green or BBK Full for your goals). It's not realistic imo to get all of this done for $1500.

For $1500 I would start working on supporting mods while your save your pennies for a good turbo and a good set of cams. Go ahead and up your injectors to your eventual power goal now, upgrade the fuel pump to your eventual hp goal, and maybe get some engine management if you don't have it already. I have had several customers that try to cheap out and are always back wanting more and have wasted money on the first round of mods.

The first thing to do is figure out honestly what hp level you will be happy with. Buy the parts once and be done with it. If your eventual goal is 500whp, start by buying the mods to get you there. Maybe take a test ride in some other members cars.

BTW I would go with Bosch injectors from Tony at N1 racing. Those things are awesome. They have 1000cc injectors you can push to 1600 and of course their new 2000 cc injectors.

I am having a hard time understanding your suggestion. Why would you do fuel pump and injectors before you do cams? You can safely do fuel pump and cams at the same time while injectors are not needed until you upgrade the turbo. Also why do you suggest an engine management system on a daily driven car which needs to pass emissions. The factory ECU is more than capable of supporting his power goals and can still pass emissions. It will likely run much better and he will save thousands of dollars between the EMS itself plus higher tuning costs. This is much more ideal for a daily driven car than having to scramble once a year for emissions not to mention the savings are substantial. That injector size is also far too large to run on this type of a setup unless he for sure is using E85. 780cc's are the recommended and ideal injector size for a turbo the size he is considering. (I can understand the injector recommendation if and only if he is running E85)

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

I am dissapointed in my hks 272's.

HKS 272s work great on the VIIIs. However, they are very mediocre on the IX's. On the IX's the GSC's or the Kelfords would be my choice. I went with the GSC's and were very pleased with them.

[mike@sargentpower]

I would honestly recommend a setup very similar to mine. Your goals are identical to what I did on my IX MR. (400whp dynamics and daily driver) As mentioned previously do it in a progression. Sounds like your next step is cams, valve springs retainers, and a fuel pump. That will set you up nicely for when you do turbo/injectors (I would recommend HTA FP Green or BBK Full for your goals). It's not realistic imo to get all of this done for $1500.



I am having a hard time understanding your suggestion. Why would you do fuel pump and injectors before you do cams? You can safely do fuel pump and cams at the same time while injectors are not needed until you upgrade the turbo. Also why do you suggest an engine management system on a daily driven car which needs to pass emissions. The factory ECU is more than capable of supporting his power goals and can still pass emissions. It will likely run much better and he will save thousands of dollars between the EMS itself plus higher tuning costs. This is much more ideal for a daily driven car than having to scramble once a year for emissions not to mention the savings are substantial. That injector size is also far too large to run on this type of a setup unless he for sure is using E85. 780cc's are the recommended and ideal injector size for a turbo the size he is considering. (I can understand the injector recommendation if and only if he is running E85)

Engine managment meaning either Cobb APv2 or getting a reflash tune with the new injectors and fuel pump. (it does not always mean a stand alone ECU...if I meant that I would have said that). I have the APv2, the cars I tune have the APv2 and none have had ANY trouble passing emissions. I (and other tuners) can tune quite a bit faster with the APv2 as it allows real time tuning vs having to flash for every single change like with reflash tunes. This will save him now AND in the future when he does the new turbo. I am a tuner so I have gone down this road a couple hundred times now.

1000cc injectors are by no means too large. The Bosch 1000s are phenomenal injectors (and no I don't sell them). We had a car that was tuned at another shop come to us to get them installed and it idled and ran BETTER without tuning on the Bosch 1000's than the other injectors did WITH tuning. There is no sense in getting an injector that just barely meets your needs. Why not go a bit bigger and lower your injector duty cycles.

There are more than a couple ways to go about this. I always recommend getting the car some basis to build from. With injectors and a fuel pump along with the APv2 he could go ahead and up the boost, get a VERY noticeable increase in performance and have his car running correctly. If you just throw cams in there with no tuning, the car will not be running the best that it could or taking full advantage of the cams.

I would do cams at the same time you do the turbo and get your final tune done at that time. In the mean time, you can safely up the boost and not have to worry about running out of injector, leaning out the motor and burning a valve or piston.

But either way you go, getting it all done, as the sales manager from Forged mentioned, for $1500 is not realistic. Better to do it in stages. Which stage you do when is ultimately up to what you want to do.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

Gotcha, usually when I hear engine management I think it refers to an ems system and not a basic flash. As far as the mod path. IF you plan to do it in 2 steps I believe you would benefit from doing fuel pump and cams much more than fuel pump and injectors. This is a very common mod path. Otherwise your adding a ton of fuel mods that will not be utilized until you do cams and turbo. Just my 2 cents. Regarding the injector size, why buy an oversized injector instead of buying an injector sized correctly for a certain application. For instance with a setup such as mine which is basically identical power goals as the OP, a 780 is perfect size. You will not run out of injector, lean out the motor, or burn a valve with these mods. (cams, fuel pump and bolt ons) If there are no plans to go larger why bother getting a 1000cc injector? Sure you can run lower duty cycle, but if you have no plans to push the car any further, which really would be either a large turbo or a built motor thus compromising it being a daily driver, what is the point?

I think it is almost always assumed that if you do cams you must get a tune. I do not know anyone who believes otherwise.

Just FYI, not trying to get into an argument here just always interested in the reasoning behind any tuners information. Always something to learn :)

[mike@sargentpower]

Right on. I just really like what I have seen from the Bosch. Price is right too! If I can have an injector run at 85% duty cycles instead of 95% duty cycles, I will pick the 85% every day as the injector is not having to work as hard, will not burn out as fast, and there is room for more if you decide to do anything else down the road. A lot of the injectors on the market are not very expandable. You can only raise the fuel pressure a few psi (utilizing an adjustable fuel pressure regulator) before they are done. With the bosch 1000's, you are good for up to 1600 cc of flow by raising the fuel pressure.

So even if the OP (or others who might read this) decides down the road that they want more or a bigger turbo or whatever, they are good. Most of the other injectors you may get another 5% or even 10% and then they are done. 10% more of 780 is only 858, 20% more would only be 936. So your range on most injectors of that size would be 780-936. With the Bosch 1000's you get 1000-1600.

There is no down side to having too much injector provided that you don't go soooo large that you have trouble idling. That WONT be an issue with the 1000's. If the price is the same why not have a better injector that will be good no matter what turbo you may want in the future instead of ones that you have to get rid of if you decide to go bigger. I know it is not as good from a sales stand point as you only get to sell the customer ONE set of injectors instead to TWO!! Only half the profit, lol. As we all know, modding is a mild addiction and ya always want a little more :) Why not plan for future possibilities?

[Psych]

Thanks guys for all of the info. Just to clarify a few things. This $1500 that Im referring to is not for terminal mods. I should have stated that the $1500 is for my NEXT mod(s). I too believe in doing things in steps. Honestly, I think I will eventually do some sort of bolt on turbo (RED, GREEN, BBK, SST) and aggressive cams. Maybe I should have just asked which one should I do next. I also failed to mention that I already have a 255lph fuel pump installed. I will also get a tuned with the new mods. Im not 100% sold on the E85 but there is a station very close to me. Thats the only reason why Im thinking about 1200cc inj.

Question: If you are tuned on E85 what happens when you are low on fuel and have to fill up on straight 93?

Lol, if the answer is what Im thinkn then screw the E85 thoughts. Everyone has provided very good insight and I respect everyones opinion. All in all, Option A is prolly where I need to focus on. Eitherway Im going to keep reading info and this thread up until i get ready to swipe my card. So if yall have more ideas and suggestions keep them coming.

[mike@sargentpower]

Well, if you are interested in getting into E85, you could do like I do and like I do for my customers and with the Cobb APv2 you have a second map loaded for 93. All you do is take 30 seconds and flash right there before you fill up to your 93 map. That is one of the HUGE advantages of the Cobb APv2. I can have 10 maps all set up a little different right there waiting for me. No need to lug around a laptop to flash. Just hook up the APv2 through the OBDII port with the provided cable select the map and you are done. Now, you do want to make sure that the tank is close to empty before switching back and forth, but it is really easy!

I have been using E85 for a while now on my WRX and the benefits are awesome. I wish it was more readily available for more people, but I am sure that will come.

[Evolvedgti]

Well, if you are interested in getting into E85, you could do like I do and like I do for my customers and with the Cobb APv2 you have a second map loaded for 93. All you do is take 30 seconds and flash right there before you fill up to your 93 map. That is one of the HUGE advantages of the Cobb APv2. I can have 10 maps all set up a little different right there waiting for me. No need to lug around a laptop to flash. Just hook up the APv2 through the OBDII port with the provided cable select the map and you are done. Now, you do want to make sure that the tank is close to empty before switching back and forth, but it is really easy!

I have been using E85 for a while now on my WRX and the benefits are awesome. I wish it was more readily available for more people, but I am sure that will come.

Good info, but for for us in EVOS there is a better way. Look up jack of trades on evom. He sales a switch for like 30 shipped. Then you get the tephra mod and just pull the switch. The part about the second map is correct though, but with the tephra mod it is already loaded.No need to take 30 seconds and load anything. Check out the ecuflash forum on evom. You will learn alot.

I myself am thinking of doing it, but don't want to get a double pumper and bigger injectors for E85. ( i am on the RED)

[Apex i ITR]

Yup.....II'm runnign the Jack of trades map switch and its simple to flip back and forth. Just flip the switch.

I'm at a cross roads right now because I want about 450-500 lbs of torque but I've read of so many issues with the double pumps just getting to work right that its making me re-think my HP goals. There doesn't seem to be many Evo owners running an inline fuel pump so I'm not sure what to do. I'm leaning towards a FP Red (Evil I know you said you've had surging issues even with the 80mm upgrade and anti-surge housing) or if CBRD puts something up comparable to it. I run E85 at all times when possible so I have no clue where to go from here. The only thing left for me to upgrade is my IC and piping. I've done everything else.

[Apex i ITR]

Oh and the 1 by 1 method does work...you just need someone who knows how to do it. I would fux0red it up so I had Zen do mine....no problems.

[EVILutionVIII]

Wait for the FP Black... http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/nervous.gif

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

FP black is not going to work well with stock block, only built blocks.

[mike@sargentpower]

Good info, but for for us in EVOS there is a better way. Look up jack of trades on evom. He sales a switch for like 30 shipped. Then you get the tephra mod and just pull the switch. The part about the second map is correct though, but with the tephra mod it is already loaded.No need to take 30 seconds and load anything. Check out the ecuflash forum on evom. You will learn alot.

I myself am thinking of doing it, but don't want to get a double pumper and bigger injectors for E85. ( i am on the RED)


The switch is ok, but I still prefer the Cobb APv2, especially when dealing with E85. I have found that in open loop fueling if you get a new blend (there are up to 3 blends here in Georgia of E85) that air fuel can be affected up to a full point!! I had four maps on my personal car. 93, Summer, Spring/Fall and winter blend. The E85 I tested ranged from 68% ethanol during winter blend time to 83% during the summer. That is a pretty big difference. So again, I prefer the Apv2 where I can store just about as many maps as I choose. Of course I am a little particular when it comes to my tunes and want everything 100% accurate at all times. 1 FULL point in the air fuel is just way too much of a difference for me.

I am familiar with ECUflash. I have used it on some wrx's, Sti's and legacies, but I still prefer the ability of the Apv2. If I want I can have a pump gas map, 3 E85 maps, a race gas map and switch between all of them on the fly. I generally steer my customers towards the Apv2 as it is much quicker to make changes down the road plus it has some pretty cool features like the road dyno, 0-60, real time data logging, real time monitoring, etc, etc.

As for running pumps inline, it is great as long as you make sure and set everything up correctly. If you install the second pump wrong though, you will burn it out in short order.

[Evolvedgti]

cool, i have heard great things about cobb for rexs but not so much for evos. Have you tuned any cobb for the evo? I think there are a few members here that are rocking the cobb but they are X's

[Evolvedgti]

FYI, I just looked at COBB's website, there is not a APV2 for the Evo just the first version.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

FYI, I just looked at COBB's website, there is not a APV2 for the Evo just the first version.

lol nice

Actually, look again, the AP for the Evo 8/9 is discontinued altogether. Guess that takes care of this discussion. Just because it works for the Subbies doesn't mean it works for the Evo's.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=3349

[mike@sargentpower]

Actually the one pictured is the Apv2. The v1 is a boxy looking one. Shame they are discontinuing for the 8 & 9. I was not aware of that :( I rarely sell them, just use them for tuning. Most of my customers had them prior to coming to me to get tuned.

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

Actually the one pictured is the Apv2. The v1 is a boxy looking one. Shame they are discontinuing for the 8 & 9.

Agreed. We do tons of AP's on the GTR's and Evo X's here and they work very nicely. They just never really made a splash with the Evo 8/9 guys. ECUflash has always been the way to go on the 8/9

[ryanowarrior]

my AP has worked great for my X. think the main reason why so many of us use the AP is cause ecuflash wasnt out at the time and still to date the data hasnt been discovered or not ALL of it anyways but its gettin there. both has there pro's and con's though i would be happier with either

[Evolvedgti]

lol nice

Actually, look again, the AP for the Evo 8/9 is discontinued altogether. Guess that takes care of this discussion. Just because it works for the Subbies doesn't mean it works for the Evo's.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=3349
I didnt look into it enough. guess that did discontinue
Agreed. We do tons of AP's on the GTR's and Evo X's here and they work very nicely. They just never really made a splash with the Evo 8/9 guys. ECUflash has always been the way to go on the 8/9

Yeah Ecuflash has a great following. I just was wondering for info sakes. ;)

ps. not questioning the 'tons' but is there alot of r35's in the A?

[shunderwunder]

Not sure about tons either but i see alot more GTRs on the road than I do Evos. I'd say atleast 2-3 times as many and you gotta figure there aint many places a GTR owner would take thier car for mods than Forged.

[bomjoon]

give it to me i'll use it wisely...

it will be the best $1500 you will be spending.

[Psych]

FP Black?!?

[ryanowarrior]

big laggy ass turbo=black

[Evolvedgti]

Not sure about tons either but i see alot more GTRs on the road than I do Evos. I'd say atleast 2-3 times as many and you gotta figure there aint many places a GTR owner would take thier car for mods than Forged.

oh okay. i knew there was 'money' in atlanta. just didnt think that many GTRs would be out there at their markup.
I expected them to go to Forged for sure. They are the premiere Nissan shop!

[BlewByYouEvoVIII]

ps. not questioning the 'tons' but is there alot of r35's in the A?

There are a fair amount, not as many as you would think. I see more than most because of Forged. We have quickly become one of the largest GT-R shops in the country. You would be surprised how many GT-R owners are previous 350z/G35 owners. We have tons of our previous Z/G customers calling us informing us that they just picked up a GT-R.


Not sure about tons either but i see alot more GTRs on the road than I do Evos. I'd say atleast 2-3 times as many and you gotta figure there aint many places a GTR owner would take thier car for mods than Forged.


I think that is because they stand out much more. There are not many GT-Rs in GA as a whole, definitely nowhere close to as many Evos.

[shunderwunder]

I think that is because they stand out much more. There are not many GT-Rs in GA as a whole, definitely nowhere close to as many Evos.

It could also be my location I guess, but I keep an eye out for Ebos too. I don't see alot ofeither but still more GTR's. Possibly the same ones though.

[Apex i ITR]

FP Black?!?
Rumour next turbo coming out from FP...there's been "some" confirmation their part but nothing concrete just a bunch of Evo guys that are testing it. I've also heard CBRD isn't sitting idly by either. There should be a ton of choices by this time next year for stock frame turbo's putting out good numbers.

[TouringBubble]

About running multiple maps on the Evo ...

Tephra has released a new version of his mods to the Evo ROM which now allows you to switch maps without the JoT switch. You use the throttle as a switch. Not as convenient as the switch, but you don't have to install anything either.

I'm about to switch to E85 soon. I'm hoping for around 380whp.

and yes, the E85 blends do differ between regions and seasons, but there is more than enough head room with E85 that you can build a tune that will run great on pretty much any E70-E90 mix you come across.

[Evolvedgti]

About running multiple maps on the Evo ...

Tephra has released a new version of his mods to the Evo ROM which now allows you to switch maps without the JoT switch. You use the throttle as a switch. Not as convenient as the switch, but you don't have to install anything either.

I'm about to switch to E85 soon. I'm hoping for around 380whp.

and yes, the E85 blends do differ between regions and seasons, but there is more than enough head room with E85 that you can build a tune that will run great on pretty much any E70-E90 mix you come across.

This map switching with the gas peddle is that V5.10, V6 or ........?
I see that you were one of the testers for ROM 88590015.

[shunderwunder]

V6 was never officially released & has evolved into V7 which has not been officially released & is due very soon. Like Matt said you can use the throttle to switch maps but you would still need a switch if you want map switching & valet mode since the new map switching with throttle uses the same procedure as valet mode. shouldnt be a big deal either way for most people.

[Evolvedgti]

Good to know. I have been trying to read up on it. I will be doing E85 next so.......

Thanks

[TouringBubble]

Yes, I used to test many of the patches. V6 included the new switching method but V7 will be out soon and will be a more solid build with more features.